Talkin’ About Mental Health with Rabbi Sandra Cohen
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Rabbi Marci Bellows Welcome to the latest episode of Women Rabbis Talk! A show where women rabbis talk to other women rabbis about being women rabbis. I'm one of your hosts Rabbi Marci Bellows and with me is our other host, Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Rabbi Emma Gottlieb! Rabbi Marci Bellows And we are so overjoyed to be with you today, we are going to start with our segment: "What are we thinking about?" and we have some really interesting stuff we've been talking about. And so Emma is going to get us started, Rabbi Emma Gottlieb I came across a really cool account on Instagram, on my Instagram feed, and it felt very relevant to our podcast, I think it's @the_ angry_rabbi ? I don't know who she is, but she has dedicated her Instagram feed to teaching Jewish texts and working through wisdom relating to anger. She's sort of promoting it as her own personal journey with anger, and inviting other people to learn along with her through the lens of Jewish texts and tradition. And she seems to be focusing a lot on sort of separating out anger management from righteous anger, sort of when do we need to lean into our anger, and when do we need to lean out of it? In addition to just being kind of a cool, I don't know, posts in my feed? Yes. So it brought up for me this theme that we talk about on the podcast, and that I'd love for us to explore a little bit more right now of how rabbis and women rabbis in particular use use our lived experience and our own personal struggles in productive, healthy ways in our rabbinate, or maybe not? Are there, are there healthier ways to do that? Are there less healthier ways to do that? You know, this, this Instagram account is anonymous. And you know, it's whichever rabbi is working through their anger, didn't want that to be associated with their their name and their actual identity, but still is being open about being a rabbi and teaching Jewish texts in this way. So it just kind of struck me as as interesting and as something worth talking about together. So I wondered what you think about it? Rabbi Marci Bellows It sounds very Rogue Shul, where it's expressing some feelings that we as Jewish professionals don't often get to express under our own names. But here's an opportunity to say, I am a rabbi and I have a lot of anger. And here's, you know, an end. And not only that, but they're valid because we have been experiencing anger for millennia. And here's, here's how I can prove it. The person who's doing it must be very brave. What a wonderful way to express those deep feelings. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Yeah. And what do you think about this question, Marci of of sort of healthy versus not healthy ways where where Rabbi's take their lived experience and their struggles in life, and sort of bring them into their rabbinate? Can we think of other ways that rabbis are doing this, healthy and not healthy ways? Rabbi Marci Bellows I think any - I think when we try not to bring certain things into our rabbinates, they will rear themselves up and appear in unhealthy ways. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Right? Rabbi Marci Bellows They will Yeah, they will appear anyway. And then often in very unhealthy ways. The healthy way to respond to anger, and I can only speak for myself is that I learned that I could not feel anger growing up and that I should not feel anger. And therefore I developed panic disorder for a very long time, until I learned that my panic was actually my anger coming out in its own way. That anytime I had panic, actually, like 99% of the time, it was anger that I wasn't acknowledging. And so I had to get to the point where like, oh, wait, I'm feeling panic. What am I actually angry about? You know, like, I had to get quickly to that point, I also had to get to a point where in my work, I could feel comfortable being assertive. And that that was okay. So if I was feeling anger about something, how can I address it in being assertive, so that I'm not being mousy and totally negating it? And I'm also not letting it get to aggression. Not that I feel like I ever would necessarily, but what if I did? What if I did explode just because something became so huge? So I don't know. What about you? What do you think? Rabbi Emma Gottlieb I think this is, in some ways, a different version of sort of starting, our - starting the rabbinic sermon with a personal anecdote right? that, that that there have always has been ways in which rabbis have brought their lived experience into their teaching. And then we can look back in the Talmud also. And there's, there's tons of stories, you know, in our rabbinic texts about where the rabbi's are using their own lived experience to teach their students and, and also in the Talmud, the healthy and unhealthy ways, right? There's like the story of the rabbi and his wife, and they're in bed together, and the students are under the bed. And they, is that the "this too is Torah" text? right? Rabbi Marci Bellows Sure is. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb So. So, you know, that's maybe not the healthiest way to share our lived experience with our students. But, but I think the point I'm trying to make is that there have always been ways in which rabbis use their life, and their own learning and their own struggles, to teach Torah and to teach to bring together Jewish wisdom and life and make life meaningful through the lens of Jewish wisdom. Rabbi Marci Bellows Yeah. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb And this just feels like a contemporary version of that, you know, and it's, you know, we've talked about before, you know, the, the "give the sermon you need to hear" wisdom. And the, if you're struggling with it, then someone in your community is also struggling with it. And this just feels like a way to respond to that with with complete honesty, like with the anonymity that social media can provide us, that, that you can't necessarily get up and give a sermon that says, I am struggling with anger management, and I'm your rabbi. But you can create an Instagram account, to say, I'm a rabbi who's learning how to control my anger, and I'm finding Jewish texts really helpful. And maybe they can help you too. Rabbi Marci Bellows Wow, that's really neat. I've got to check out that Instagram account. That sounds really fascinating. And thank you for bringing it to our attention. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Shout out to the angry rabbi, whoever you are, we'd love to hear from you. Rabbi Marci Bellows Yeah! Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Hit us up. We can find a way to cover up your voice and do an interview with you, we'll figure it out. Come on the podcast, Rabbi Marci Bellows we'll see if we have that technology. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb We'll keep your secret Rabbi Marci Bellows Just like we wanted to do with Rogue Show before they outed themselves. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Maybe one day, the angry Rabbi will be ready to reveal herself and she'll come on the podcast. Rabbi Marci Bellows Yeah. And it's interesting that you're saying "herself". Have there been things that this Instagrammer has said that make it seem like it's a female? Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Well, the profile picture is of a woman. I don't recognize her. So I don't think it's actually what she looks like. But although I, there are many women rabbis out there that I've never seen before, so who knows, but anyway, the profile pictures of a woman, but it doesn't strongly, I don't think it specifically identifies that it is a woman, I'm just basing it off of a picture. Rabbi Marci Bellows And also that it's tends to be women I believe, who have more anger issues or issues expressing anger than men do. Typically. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Is it that women have more issues expressing anger or that society is less forgiving of women when they express their anger? Rabbi Marci Bellows Yes, and yes. Though I have to say my son is already - Rabbi Emma Gottlieb I gotta say, Marci. I'm angry about that. Rabbi Marci Bellows Yeah, yeah! I hear ya! Um, but somehow Spencer's getting the message that it's not okay to be angry. And I have to keep saying no, no, it's okay. You can be angry at mommy and daddy, and it's okay, we can handle it. No, no, I'm happy. And I'm like, no, no, it's okay. You can be angry. And so I don't, I'm not exactly sure where he got that message from. And we're working on it. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Right. It's about finding healthy ways to express and share our anger. Not not feeling our anger. Rabbi Marci Bellows right. The world is not going to explode. If you are angry. We're gonna figure it all out together. This has been really awesome. And I know I can't wait now to speak to our very special guest today. Coming up next! Rabbi Marci Bellows We are incredibly privileged today to welcome Rabbi Sandra Cohen, who will be speaking to us today about such a critical human issue and rabbinical issue, and we just can't wait to hear more about it. But first, Rabbi Sandra Cohen, what would you like us to call you during our time together today? And why? And what are your preferred pronouns? Rabbi Sandra Cohen We are all colleagues here. And so please call me Sandy. And my preferred pronouns are she and her. I'll just note briefly, I am now a Jew in the pew. I haven't been congregational Rabbi for 20 years or something like that. Professionally, I like to be Rabbi Cohen. And it's an interesting balance when you're a congregant. Rabbi Marci Bellows That's true. Yes. What do you want people to call you when you're not in a practicing role? How do you navigate that? Rabbi Sandra Cohen Well, I kind of suggest Rabbi Cohen on a regular basis, then I cringed when they call me Rabbi Sandy, because it's not a term that I like. So we kind of walked that bridge, right? We want to be friendly, but not, you know, both. So it's an interesting, it's its own show all by itself. What are women rabbis called and why? Rabbi Marci Bellows it's true. And that's why we ask it every time because everyone has such personal answers and responses to it. So thank you. So in terms of your own rabbinic journey, how and why did you choose to become a rabbi? Rabbi Sandra Cohen my very first class that I ever took in college was introduced introduction to Hebrew Bible. And on my very first midterm, which I shouldn't say I did really well on it, my professor wrote at the bottom, 'have you considered going into religious studies, or becoming a rabbi?' And that honest to goodness changed my path. I started studying religious studies. And I got very active in my home synagogue, when I was in high school. And then when I was in college, especially my parents moved away, but I was still in the Twin Cities. And slowly I discovered that rather than doing the academic work of religious studies, I wanted to be able to be involved with other people. And so being a rabbi lets to me being a scholar and a pastor simultaneously. Rabbi Marci Bellows Beautiful point, yeah, you can actually share that knowledge and share your passion for Judaism and do the pastoral work as well. So what are some of the positions that you've held prior to becoming a proud Jew in the pew? Rabbi Sandra Cohen my husband and I moved out to Denver, almost 28 years now for an assistant Rabbi position for me right out of school, then I was the Rabbi, I had a baby. And I was the Rabbi of a small reformed congregation Temple Micah here in Denver for four well, technically, six years, but four and a half years. And then I had a major stroke in my early 30s. And it became quite clear that I could not do the work of a congregational Rabbi that I was left with chronic fatigue and chronic migraines and stuff. And so over the course of the past 20 years, I started doing a lot of writing, I teach in a variety of contexts. I teach mostly rabbinic texts. what is it? So I would say, like six years ago, or so I decided that my own experience in the world of mental illness and mental health might be something that I could share, and be useful to other people. I guess what I would say is that, when you're not the congregational rabbi, it's a whole lot easier to talk about your issues, because I have nothing to lose. Whereas for congregational rabbis, it's a very difficult process of what you share and what you don't share. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb It's so interesting. We were just speaking about this earlier in the episode in relation to anger management, and the broader question of what things can rabbis share appropriately, and how do rabbis share from their lived experience and from their own challenges in a way that is healthy and productive and useful for their students and their community, but also in a way that's appropriate? And I think you're you're highlighting that that might be a bigger challenge for congregational rabbis than for other rabbis, but maybe also a challenge for all rabbis. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I mean, when I go and speak someplace about my own about it, like for a scholar in residence weekend, or a one time sermon, or whatever, I talk about the mitzvot and the middot involved in really opening ourselves to those who have mental illness and to their families. But they also tell parts of my own story. And what I like to say is I go to shul I get up on the Bema I take up off my clothing, tell my story, put my clothing back on and then in the kiddush or the oneg afterwards, half the congregation comes up to me and says my father, my sister, my child, myself, He has this this this issue. As a as a friend of mine put it, it's like coming out when you say you have a mental illness, and I have a debilitating mental illness, but I'm not going to lose my job because I come out with it. And so that gives me the ability to do that, to write about it and talk about it and be really upfront with my own stuff. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Yeah, I mean, I think it's so powerful when rabbis are able to be vulnerable in that way. And when you're talking about taking off your clothes, of course, you know, our listeners can't see you. So it's a metaphor, just for anyone who wasn't sure, but we do sometimes really put ourselves out there as rabbis and share in in vulnerable ways. And often those are, are what leads to some of the most powerful conversations with people because they do come and say, you know, you were talking about me you were talking about my family. You were talking about my experience. And thank you. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Yeah, if we could now and what I always think is, this is a really good start. So now we need to help congregations or other organizations, help all those people talk to each other and be with each other instead of everybody hiding in their own little shameful space. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb We've sort of jumped right into it, we maybe just for our listeners should pull back for a second, and just ask you to share a little bit about sort of the specifics of your work around mental health. What does that look like? Who do you work with? And, and if you feel comfortable sharing a little bit more about your own story and how how you were led to that work, we would love to hear and I'm sure listeners would appreciate to hear. Rabbi Sandra Cohen So I come to working in mental health as someone who's been in and out of therapy mostly in for like, 40 years. I like to think I'm getting somewhere. I have a biologically based mental illness I have bipolar disorder with with treatment resistant depression. And I have tried everything in the book. So I'm always on the cutting edge in terms of treatment. I think what happened for me on my my career line, is that as it became clear to me over the course of many years that I really wanted to figure out some way of doing something that had meaning in the world. And I'm, and I was not going to be a congregation rabbi, and I'm doing some teaching, but it wasn't whatever. And I thought I can tell my story. And in telling my story, as I said, I can talk about the Jewish values that will help. So when I do, for example, come when I preach, I have talked about this and I kind of wove weave my own story into kind of a discussion what are core Jewish middot or mitzvot around mental health? Bikkur Chollim, right, visiting the sick, which is not just for cancer patients, it's for people who have mental illnesses, and that can range from anything from showing up with, you know, with a kuggel and doing laundry, to simply know it noticing somebody who's usually in shul and who isn't there. And you should track them down and see if they're okay. Welcoming the Stranger, right? Hachnassat Orchim. And I talk about that that's like virtue signaling. When you have cards from NAMI - National Alliance on Mental Illness -or other mental health resources. When you have those in the bathrooms or sitting in the lobby, when you have a mental health guide on your synagogue web page. Not only does that give people access to resources, it also tells people Oh, they knew about mental illness here in this congregation, I must be safe here. And then I was talking about Gimmilut Chassadim, deeds of loving kindness, how can we kind of be there? Derech Eretz, walking with each other. I'll talk about all of that. And then when I do a workshop, we'll kind of do a more in depth with some study about each of those things. And some practical action items around each of those things. I also teach a class sometimes that's pretty much called Bikkur Cholim: visiting the sick, what to say and what not to say. At the beginning to ask people, what's the most inappropriate thing anybody has ever said to you when you were sick? is a really fun exercise, because people don't know. And so. So that's what I do. And that's how I kind of came to it was slowly telling my own story, and then figuring out what are the Jewish aspects that can be useful here. The other thing I'll notice, actually, I just got elected to the NAMI, Colorado Board, it's very exciting. And they have a faith net, which is a really good organised good branch of NAMI to help reach out to synagogues, churches, mosques, temples, whatever. And so I'm excited to be joining the board and bringing my own experience there and bringing kind of my religion out there. Rabbi Marci Bellows Wow, what an honor. Mazel tov. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Well, thank you. It's very exciting. Rabbi Marci Bellows And they're lucky to have you and your wisdom and experience. I'm sure. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I hope so. I told my friend who nominated me I said sometimes I had good periods and sometimes I had bad periods. And he said, you know, at NAMI, we believe in putting people who have lived experience in positions of power. Okay, then. Rabbi Marci Bellows Right, you would hope of all places, that would be understanding - Rabbi Sandra Cohen Right? Exactly. Rabbi Marci Bellows - you want to see you, you know, at your real-ness you know? Rabbi Sandra Cohen Right? Rabbi Marci Bellows In your wellness. Yeah. Wow. Rabbi Marci Bellows Now you say on your website that you appreciate opening the door to the discussion of mental illness in the Jewish community. And so and you know, you were talking about some of the middot, some of the qualities that can help us do this. What what are some of the other best ways to help open the door to the discussion? Rabbi Sandra Cohen Well, the first thing is talking about it, talking about it, talking about it, right? Where we were 30 years ago with cancer 35, right? When nobody talked about cancer, nobody talked about, right? the Big C. And now in my synagogue I I attend regularly has posters on the inside of the bathroom stalls reminding women that, right? Jews can be in danger of the BRACCA genes, right? That's a long way to go. Every time we do a Misha barrack, we need to say we're talking about physical issues, mental issues, emotional and spiritual ones. And we feel like well, I said that, so now people know. And I, the metaphor I use is how many times did you teach your child tell your child "cross - look both ways before you cross the street" before it sinks in? And that's how often we have to mention mental illness, every service, every program, every everywhere in our literature's they said on our website, from the Bema. Mental Health Month is always a good time to do that. And in May, but we can do that. And other times too. We did that. A few years ago, myself, God, we also the our disabilities committee committee also had us do a mental health piece, asking people to speak about their own experience asking people to get to listen to those things. And as I've also been doing some of those actual concrete things, oh, several, a couple of years, a few years ago, just before the pandemic. And I mean, like, just before the pandemic, I was hospitalized for a few days, on a mental health ward. And I told my husband to, you know, let a couple of people know and one young woman who I've known since she was a Bat Mitzvah student with me back way back, and who I learned with regularly, she came to visit me and she said, I wasn't sure if I should come or not. But it seemed to me that if you broke your leg, I would come visit you. And if we think illness is illness, then I should just come visit you. And I thought well, that was a wise thing. Right? Well, I'll add one more thing. We want to teach that in our religious schools as well, for a couple of reasons. One is so that when kids are out with mental health issues, their friends can learn how to welcome them back very matter of factly, or even how to reach out while they're being you know? And also, because it's our teenagers know who else is in trouble. Right? The teenager knows who teenagers know who's throwing up in the bathroom after lunch. Or who's cutting or who's talking about hurting themselves. And we want to empower our teenagers to know what to do when that happens. How do you help your friend? Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Wow, that's so important. I imagine that a lot of people are nervous to talk to young people about mental health. And not sure you know, what age to begin educating about mental health and how to do that. Do you have any sort of best practices around that? Rabbi Sandra Cohen Well, I mean, we start with little kids just by naming our feelings and that they're normal. But that's the first thing in here options. And we would do that with really little kids, right? Oh, you're really angry, and the kid discovers, oh, that's what this feeling is called and that other people have that feeling. I think that we want to train our religious school teachers and our preschool teachers, how to notice if there might be a problem. And also then how to talk to parents about it. Because we're so worried about our kids, and a religious school teacher or preschool teacher comes up to you and says, I'm worried about your child because XY and Z. So often our response is, no, no, it's fine, everything's fine. Rather, what we want to be able to do is to say, I'm a little worried about your kid, here's some resources for you. Here's a book you can read. Here's a therapist you can talk to, here's a place you can go get your child evaluated. And clergy especially need to have a list of risks, mental health resources and a therapist. So that so that we can refer-on right because we can do some pastoral care, but at some point, it's beyond us. It's not what we're trained for. And so I have some people who I've seen in pastoral care for a long time, but who at some point, each of them just said, if you want to keep seeing me, you're going to need a therapist as well. So knowing our limits as caregivers is also really important. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Absolutely. Rabbi Marci Bellows My son has a book called The Frustrating Book, and it just came out by Mo Willems, who does um, all the pigeon books, like the pigeon. Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus and the pit, the Piggy and Gerald books. And it just came out. And the whole point of the book is to explain frustration. And so my son is six. And it's all about a squirrel who goes and wants to buy frustration from his friends. And they keep saying, Oh, we had some, uh, we just ran out. And he's like, What do you mean? Well, we ran out, I'm sorry, we don't have any wet and so like, he gets frustrated. And and he's experiencing. And so as you're reading it, you're feeling what he's feeling. And it's helping kids get some of even the more abstract feelings, you know, not just anger and sadness, but no registration. Yeah, you know, and it's hard, I think for the little ones, but especially boys. I mean, I think that's a big thing, too, is helping boys know that their feelings are valid as well. But that's a whole other ball of wax. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I grew up in a family where there was a mental illness. We didn't talk about it. It just, I just it was there a few years ago, like maybe a couple of years ago, the Disabilities Committee wanted people to talk about absenting about a mental illness in their lives. And so they asked me so among other people, I asked my daughter she wants to talk about called her up. She was in law school at the time, I said to her, Would you like to talk or be willing to talk about what it was like growing up in a family where there was mental illness? And there's this very long pause, and she says, it was okay. You said, I said they're gonna want more than that. But what I learned from what she had to say what she spoke beautifully, of course, but that I'm not prejudiced. She talked about the experience of my stroke when she was four and a half and visiting me in the hospital and how scary that was, and like that? and she talked about, she remembers coming and making Shabbos with me in the hospital when she was about 10, and whatever. And what was interesting to me was that she didn't differentiate between when I was in the hospital for a physical illness or when I was in the hospital for a mental illness. So that was good. I let her know I had this thing called depression. And that was why sometimes I couldn't do the things that we wanted to do together and she was then able to identify with no shame whatsoever her own mental illness issues. Like she just thinks it's a normal thing to talk about. And I thought look at that, in the course of a couple generations, we can change the narrative. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Wow, that's really powerful to hear and think about and I'm sure there are listeners out there for whom that is comforting to to hear. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb So I'm wondering, in addition to these really important conversations that you're having with, with parents and with kids, when you're speaking as a scholar in residence, what other topics are people wanting to hear in connection to mental illness? What are some of the the top questions that you're asked? What are people wanting to know? Rabbi Sandra Cohen Well, I mean, I think really, people want to know that they're not alone. So when I'll teach a tech study about like, mental illness and rabbinic literature, or in the Bible and rabbinic literature, people find that really, really comforting that the status is there. And that we know right, that's a shoteh, somebody who is is not not competent, is the way I like to translate that. And one of the things I like about this issue of the shoteh is that in I think its in Hagigah, they talked about how someone who, if you're a Shoteh, you're not obligated to anything, because you're not competent. But they talk about what makes you a Shoteh. If you wander around the cemetery at night, if you carry your clothing, whatever. And then they talk about and then Maimonides talks, pretty specifically about to how how to know when someone is in a position of being a Shoteh, and when they are not. That is to say it is not a permanent condition. It's a condition that might go up and down. And I mentioned that because one of the things I think is really important for us to know is that the model we have in the media is is that somebody gets depressed or has a mental illness, they have a crisis, there's an intervention, they work for a while, then there's a moment with their therapist that something really crucial comes out and lots of tears, and then you get better, right? Definitely. And then you're then you're better. In reality. Most mental illnesses, not all, but most mental illnesses are work like MS does or Lupus on a sine curve, right? Its in remission, we're having a recurrence, you're in remission, you're having a recurrence. I find it comforting to know that even by rabbinic literature time, they knew that that was true. I think that it's powerful for people to know for me to know to say I'm having mental illness. But look, I'm still here teaching. I'm I'm still here preaching, and my story matters. And I think we all want to know that our stories matter. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb That really resonates with me. I've also had times in my life where I've struggled with anxiety and with depression. And I remember how powerful it was to learn about Rev NachmanA. And that he also might have been someone who had struggles with mental illness, and specifically the kinds of mental illness that we're talking about depression, perhaps manic episodes, and yet he was - or not even yet - AND he was a prolific writer and teacher and charismatic leader, and has, you know, this, this very renowned, well respected legacy. And when I was, you know, struggling with with mental illness, at times in rabbinical school, it was so reassuring to know that I could still be a rabbi. And that's, you know, that I could still be a writer and that I could, could tap into some of that pain, and perhaps, channel it into into prayer and into meditation and into spirituality in the ways that Reb Nachman did. And and knowing that, that these challenges are embedded in our rabbinic texts, and that there are rabbis who've come before us who struggled with these things, and still been successful rabbis, is is just so important. Rabbi Sandra Cohen You know, Reb Nachman from what I understand didn't really say, Lo l'fached klal, right? Don't be afraid. What he said was we all have a narrow bridge, v'lo l'hitpached klal, like that you should not make yourself afraid. Sort of like, he's kind of saying, Look, yes, we all have our own journey. We're not all going across that narrow bridge together. Right? Each of us has narrow bridges to cross. And it's almost as though he says it's okay to be afraid, but don't make it worse than it has to be. Right? Cuz they say yes, of course, you're frightened. It's a narrow bridge, that would, that would be a good response. But you don't need to spook yourself. You can say it to yourself, I can do I'm afraid and I can do this. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Right. It's that some of that sort of self soothing mantra kind of stuff that folks who've had anxiety and have had to learn how to cope with anxiety, you know, know, sometimes you have to talk to yourself and talk yourself down and calm yourself down. And, you know, there's all all sorts of great strategies now, but almost that, you know, that's what I hear in Reb Nachman. In that, you know, not to make yourself afraid to be able to say to yourself I'm okay, I'm okay, one step at a time. I can do this, you know, and that he was was trying to teach in his own way that sometimes we have to reassure ourselves to get across the bridge, Rabbi Sandra Cohen you know, of all the things that I do when yoga shavasana right, but the last post and and pranayama the breathing stuff is really hard for me because of anxiety stuff. And I've learned over the years I breathe in kol hanishama - that I breathe out t'halel yah. And I breathe in hallelu, and I out breathe out, Yah. Having that to say in my brain helps me from monkey brain, right? When you're just kind of all over the place. I'm like, I can't apparently just pay attention to my breathing. But I can work on paying attention to my breathing with the idea that you know well, someday I'll do it better. Today, this is what I'm doing. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb I love that. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb So what can congregations do to support people in their communities who are struggling with mental health? And what can they do to support their rabbis who might be struggling with mental health? Rabbi Sandra Cohen And we want to remember that we're working with, with people with mental health issues and to their family members who so when you reach out to someone who's has a mental illness or family member, I'd say a couple things. One is I liked the image of when you go visit a new baby, a newborn, or a loved one, we don't have any expectation that you're going to go. And that date is now going to start slipping through the night, right? Now you're gonna go you're gonna hold the baby. So mom can take a 20 minute shower and you're gonna put in a load of laundry, Dad can take a bath. You bring over Kugel, you tell them how cute the baby is, and then you leave. So when we reach out to people with mental illnesses, and we reach out to their families, if we can remind ourselves that it's okay to set limits, how long am I going to be there? How often I want to be there. And to remind ourselves that we haven't failed if we didn't fix it. That's also a good thing. Right? You were there while you were there. And just by the way, as a liberal Rabbi, I will note, we are very reluctant liberal rabbis to offer to pray with someone, but it's really powerful. You can sing Debbie Friedman's Mi Shebeirach with them. You can just say, a Mi Shebeirach. If you can read a psalm together, you can make up a prayer, I think it's always a good idea to just end the visit by saying someone would you like us to do a prayer? And the person can say no, and that's fine. And if they say yes, then you can bring right that, that Jewish piece into it. And that kind of connects you with God, we have the up and down between us and God and the side to side, peer to peer and those both relationships are really important. And and as I said, the more resources we could have out the better we are is such a good place to begin for congregations, is having resource lists of what you can do if need help. I think that rabbis also need to know that. So in Denver, we now have a rabbinic support group that meets once a month with a with a psych with a psychologist to talk about what we're doing and how things are going personally, professionally, whatever. I know, my best friend is an Episcopal priests, just because, and I know she has a clergy group that she has been meeting with, like 20 years, I think since she was ordained and been there. Meeting with each other and talking with each other is really important. Because in some ways, we're the only ones who really understand what it's like a rabbi of any kind, much less a congregational rabbi, and so we can really hear each other. I think also that rabbis, I think we have all rabbis at some point, whether in Rabbi school, rabbinical school, or in general, should be in therapy at some point. Maybe not always, or maybe in and out. But so you have someone to talk to you and to help you get perspective and to help you take care of yourself. I was recommended to my therapist that I have here in Colorado, when my baby was about five months old. And every year my gynecologist who made the recommendation says, 'so Are you still seeing?' and I'm like, 'I'm still seeing!' right? That's what that's what I need to maintain my mental health. And I think rabbis shouldn't be afraid of it. I did have someone say to me once that she would never see a rabbi uh, a therapist in the Jewish community. Because they talk to each other. I'm like, no, they don't. Right? When I see my therapist in synagogue or walking in the park, she doesn't acknowledge me. And if I say hi to her, she says, Hi, Rabbi Cohen, how are you? So we need to not be afraid to take care of ourselves in as many ways as possible? Because it's hard being a rabbi. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Yeah. Marci and I are both big fans and advocates of therapy. We've talked about it on podcast several times. Earlier today, I was telling Marci about amazing advice that I got for my therapist to go and study something that I'm that I was struggling with. And my therapist said, Well, you're a rabbi go study the Jewish texts on that thing and see if that helps. you know, it's it's really important and I think, yeah, you know, for some rabbis, they they might want to have a, they might feel that they particularly want a Jewish therapists who can relate to what they do in a in a sort of more knowing way. And for some rabbis, they might not want that. I once had a fabulous therapist who was the wife of a rabbi and that was a great fit. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Oh yeah. I had when I started seeing the psychiatrist they see now Oh, 10 10 15 years ago anyway, the first year when he wasn't Jewish, and the first year and Passover came around, and I had met was meeting with him for med check. But I was saying how anxious I was going to have all this stuff to do I do it. And he's looking at me. Like, I'm a crazy person. And I, and I stopped, I said, Oh, I said, this is not me. This is what many, many talk to my therapist, she's Jewish, she does this too, with the cleaning in the winter. I'm like, This is not me being weird. This is just something you don't know about. And which is fine, too. And over the years, he's asked me about this or that Jewish questions. And I'm always happy to be a resource, right? Rabbi Marci Bellows Funny thing is one of my therapists a long time ago, was also the wife of a rabbi. And so that's I didn't see her very long, just because I wound up it was in high school, and I wound up going to college. But the therapist I've been seeing now for, oh, my gosh, probably 15 to 20 years, is a Jungian psychoanalyst, and what I love is the embrace of the spiritual, and the validation of the Spirit. And so you know, even though my therapist is not Jewish, the spiritual world is acknowledged and embraced and is an important part of the work we do together. And that's why, you know, my therapist is not allowed to ever retire. So there. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I know, I make my therapist - I'm like, I want you to promise me you're not going to die. And then she reality checks with me and like, the fact that you were a decade older than me when I started seeing you was not an issue, but I can see that it's gonna be an issue. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb So so this has been such an inspirational conversation. Sandy, before we move into the next segment, is there anything else you want to tell us, or that you think our listeners need to know about this topic? Rabbi Sandra Cohen No, you just need to be able to tell yourself, it's okay. And whether you're a rabbi or a congregant, or whatever, you're not alone. You don't need to be alone. Go to your rabbi. If you're a rabbi, go to your rabbis rabbi, use other places. use their right? So NAMI, National Alliance on Mental Illness, NAMI has a faith net branch that reaches out, we should note, by the way, the National Suicide Hotline has been changed to 988. And it will hook you up with resources in your area code. So if your area code is off, we're working on that. And the other thing I guess, I would say is that the United Church UCC, the United Church of Christ, which is a liberal Protestant denomination, has a mental health network. And they encourage congregations to create WISE covenants. And this has been happening in Colorado two congregations of in Boulder, and then my congregation here in Denver as the third one, a WISE covenant. It's and I translated it into Hebrew. So a brit consisted of Welcoming, Inclusive, Supportive and Engaged. So for there, there are four basic prongs are Chachnassat Orchim, right? like, like Abraham and Sarah welcoming, including people with mental health challenges in their families. And I call that Derech Eretz, walking with one another, supporting people with mental health challenges and their loved ones, which is the mitzvah of Bikkur Cholim, visiting the sick caring for the sick. And then we engage with other organizations and communities in the work of mental health awareness and support. And I called that Tikkun Olam. And so we have that on our website Rodef Shalom Denver, we have that out. We have a mental health tab on our website that has our covenant, and then also has a variety of mental health resources, everything from 988 suicide line to the Trevor helpline for LGBTQ teens and like that. So there's lots of cool stuff there. You said, that's on my synagogue one, or you're welcome to go to my web page, which is www Rabbi Sandra Cohen dot com, that org sorry. I'm a dot org. And lots of good resources there too. Rabbi Marci Bellows Thank you so much. Just amazing. Speaking with you, Sandy, really. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Oh that's so kind! Rabbi Marci Bellows oh and it's from the bottom of my heart. I just this is so uplifting and just feels good to as you're saying. I mean, the whole point of what you're talking about is just it feels good to talk about it. Rabbi Marci Bellows Maybe this is related, but I don't know you who knows what direction you're gonna take this. But every episode we have an Ask the Rabbi segment. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Yep Rabbi Marci Bellows And we have a question from @tessaquail. And their question is, What's the best advice a mentor ever gave you? Rabbi Sandra Cohen I have so many answers to that. But I'm going to go with W.A.I.T. So I've done some supervision work over the years with Rabbi Ellen Lewis, who's amazing, and everyone should know and love. And she taught me WAIT, when you're sitting in a pastoral care setting with somebody else. You say to yourself, Why Am I Talking? which is a wonderful way to make sure that what I'm doing is creating a holding environment for this person and their experience, their feelings, their concerns, and not pushing my own agenda. So I like that a lot. Rabbi Marci Bellows So it's an acronym. Rabbi Sandra Cohen It's an acronym Rabbi Marci Bellows magical. Why Am I Talking? I feel like I need to wait now. And let that sink in for everybody. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Everybody just take a beat. So Marci, what? I'm curious to hear your answer, What's the best advice a mentor ever gave you? Rabbi Marci Bellows I, it's not an actual piece of advice as much as it was a role modeling. And I know I've mentioned this before. But Rabbi Melinda Panken, who was just so amazing, just role modeled to me that you can be real when you're a rabbi. And you don't have to be some kind of fake version of yourself that's up on a pedestal that's up on a very high pulpit, totally perfect. But instead, you can be silly, and you can be accessible, you can be you. And that's part of what your own superpowers are going to be as a rabbi. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb And here we are on a podcast where we are our very real selves. Rabbi Marci Bellows very real Rabbi Sandra Cohen warts and all. Rabbi Marci Bellows What about you, Emma? Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Yeah, I don't know if I've, I feel like I've probably shared this on the podcast before. So listeners, forgive me if this is a repeat. But when I was a rabbinical student, and we were assigned mentors, I had a fabulous woman, Rabbi mentor - this was Rabbi Eliza Stern from Congregation Etz Chayim in Cambridge, MA. And she said, I was telling her about, I just made the transition from cantorial school to rabbinical school. And we were talking about rabbis that that I admire and what kind of Rabbi I might want to be and I was talking about not wanting to be, at that time, I didn't imagine that I would enjoy being a congregational rabbi, which of course now I love. She asked me about you know what congregational rabbis do I, you know, do I love, would I want to be like? Or I can't remember exactly how she asked it, but I was describing some of my favorite congregational rabbis. And, and I was saying, but I'm not like that. I don't have that characteristic. I don't do you know, I can't do that the way they do that. I'm not charismatic in that way. Or, you know, whatever it was, and she said, you know, Emma, you don't have to be THAT Rabbi. And it was it was just such a profound moment of relief. And it felt like a door opened to all these possibilities of oh, I can be my version of a rabbi and what does THAT look like? And that's exciting, you know, and and, and anytime I get Rabbi Envy - anytime I looking at another rabbi and thinking about like, wow, they do that so well. And I don't do that as well as they do that, which I'm sure we all have those moments. I'm taking off my clothes. I'm telling you about them. When when I have those rabbi envy - Marci's laughing at me - when I have those Rabbi envy moments, I hear her voice saying to me, you don't have to be THAT Rabbi. And, and I carry it. I carry it with me. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I remember distinctly at a WRN conference before the pandemic. And I came in late because I was had slept late anyway. But the speaker was talking about embracing your gifts, which of course, we talked about a lot. But I like what you just said Emma, what I suddenly had, like a light bulb went off. And I thought, I know what my gifts are. I can also have things I don't do well, right? Nobody does everything. And that was such a, I thought, I don't just need to embrace my gifts. I need to embrace my, what's the opposite of that? - my inadequacy, or my lack of talent or my lack of whatever, in certain areas as well. What the heck! Rabbi Marci Bellows And it's okay. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Yeah, and it's gonna need to be okay, because it's not realistic to think you're gonna be good at everything you do. Rabbi Marci Bellows Yeah. And often congregations want us to be good at every single part of what a rabbi should be in their eyes. But we have limits. Rabbi Sandra Cohen And we don't, we have talents, and we have things that we're not so good at. Rabbi Marci Bellows Yep. Yep. Great point. And Emma, that's so beautiful. You don't have to be THAT Rabbi. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I also want to say that I'm, I'm having some slight Rabbi envy because we did not have mentors when I was in Rabbi school. So that's a really a step up, Rabbi Emma Gottlieb I have to say that as the child of a rabbi, I was deeply resistant to the idea of rabbinic mentors. And I felt deeply oppressed by the College and later by the CCAR that forced me to have a rabbinic mentor in my first year as a rabbi, you had to sign an agreement before you were ordained. I don't know if they do this anymore. I hope they do. But you had to, you had to agree to become a member of the CCAR, out of HUC, you had to agree to have one year of being mentored by another CCAR rabbi. And I fought it tooth and nail. I spent the first like, three sessions with my CCAR mentor, telling her why I didn't need her. And then she finally told me why I needed her, gave me a few reality checks. She was a little sharp with me, it was very helpful. That was Rosalind Gold. Thank you, Rosalind. And when I look back, I'm so appreciative. You know that the College forced me to have a rabbinic mentor, and that the CCAR forced me to have a rabbinic mentor. And I hope that they are forcing all of the students to keep doing that. Marci says, three. Rabbi Marci Bellows Three years now it's three, Rabbi Emma Gottlieb three years, Rabbi Marci Bellows you have to be mentored, Rabbi Emma Gottlieb even better! Rabbi Marci Bellows yes, the last year of school, and then the first two years of your rabbinate to be a member of the CCAR. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb maybe that's what I had to do too but but I really remember I think that first year because I was fighting it, and then yeah. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I was privileged to just a couple years ago, really like exactly when the pandemic broke out, like from March 2020, to March 2021, to have mentor through a program that the Western Foundation runs for its alumni. And I was privileged to be part of that. That added one your mentor, kind of mentoring me and pushing me to do more writing and, and trying to put it together and it's not going well, but it was a really good experience. And he's still out there for me and I only mentioned that because right? so I had found for myself a mentor when I had been in the rabbinate for 25 years already. Rabbi Marci Bellows Right? Rabbi Sandra Cohen A mentor or a coach Rabbi Emma Gottlieb And those are also people we can really lean on around mental illness and Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Moving into Questionnaire Mahare. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Yay. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb This is rapid-fire so it'll be short answers. And whatever comes to mind you can also pass if you if you feel stuck. Sandy, are you ready? Rabbi Sandra Cohen I'm ready. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Sandy, who was your first woman Rabbi either in your home synagogue or that you were first aware of Rabbi Sandra Cohen Rabbi Marcy Zimmerman, Temple Israel, Minneapolis. She arrived. I think when I was beginning Rabbi School, she was a great mentor for me. I will just note, by the way that I used to babysit for her first baby when she had that first baby. And then a few years ago, that first baby, went to rabbinical school and was the Wexner Fellow, like 29 years afterwards. And that was a bizarre thing to me. He was wonderful. But yeah, she was great. She's amazing. And she's still the Senior Rabbi there. She's amazing. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Fabulous. And tell us about another another woman that inspires you. It can be Jewish or otherwise. Rabbi Sandra Cohen I went with the Jewish. I'm going to call out to Rabbi Julie Schwartz, who runs the CPE program that started the CPE program in Cincinnati. She was a she was a mentor to me, she accepted me into her house in her home. I used to babysit for her as well. She used to invite me for Shabbes. And she and she had she was in the Navy for a while. So she was a pioneer just in so many contexts. And she was you know, one of the first female faculty at ACC in Cincinnati. So she was great for my rabbinate. When I went back this past March 2022 To get my, belatedly get my DD, It was just amazing to see her. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Wow, Julie Schwartz, if you're listening and you want to be on the podcast... Rabbi Sandra Cohen yeah! Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Fill in the blank. Being a woman rabbi is or women rabbis are Rabbi Sandra Cohen Being a woman rabbi is a blessing and a privilege. It's an honor to have people invite me into their lives and to witness their lives to listen to them and witness amazing courageous things that people do. So that's my short answer. A slightly different answer is people wouldn't believe that women rabbis still have people commenting on their clothing. Which is not exactly the question, but that is what popped into my head was, and yet they still want to know what I'm wearing. Rabbi Marci Bellows It's true! Rabbi Emma Gottlieb It's it's perfect. And it is the next the next question. It was what do you think would would surprise people to learn about women rabbis? So I think you've answered that. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Well, no commenting on our clothing Rabbi Emma Gottlieb and our weight and our hair and our jewelry and our makeup and everything and our shoes and all the things. Sandy, do you have a favorite Jewish character from a book movie or TV show? Rabbi Sandra Cohen I go back to the classics and Asher Lev. I'm such a huge Chaim Potok fan. So um, and I yeah, I go back and reread his stuff on a regular basis. I just find it very comforting. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb I haven't read those books in so long. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I need to go dust those off. And yeah, thank you. A Jewish text teaching or value that inspires you or informs your life? Rabbi Sandra Cohen I'm a big believer in when you do Yom Kippur, you should just pick one thing to work on every year, and not all of the things because if I work on all of the things, none of them get done. So for the past few years, I've been working on Dam L'chaf Zechut, that we should judge all people favorably. I am trying now to move into the next thing, which is Life is Not a Competition. Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Oh, yeah. You don't have to be that Rabbi. Rabbi Sandra Cohen You don't have to be that Rabbi! Rabbi Emma Gottlieb And finally, Sandy, what are you thinking about these days? Rabbi Sandra Cohen That's a good question. I'm thinking a lot about probably I'm thinking about personally, How, what do I want to write about next? What do I have? What do I still have to say? When I'm not doing well emotionally, I feel like I've said everything I had to say and everybody's done with me and I can just go disappear now. Which is which is not a good place to be. That's not a fun place to be. But I am doing a lot of thinking about ways - how, how can I take my wee little bitty ideas and sermons or whatever and really help synagogues do small things that would make big differences in people's lives? And maybe there's that I think that ah we tend to think of, there's some guys who get these huge grants, and they have social workers and they have great work. But there's so much stuff we can do that's very small and doable. And I'm guess I'm thinking about how to get that out there in better ways, Rabbi Emma Gottlieb Small Changes, Big Impact sounds like a great title of a book. I can't wait to read it. And we will have you back on the podcast, I can definitely tell that there is so much more wisdom that you have that we haven't heard yet. So we will be so happy to have you back again to hear about your next steps when they happen. Rabbi Sandra Cohen This was such a privilege to be invited, and so much fun to be here with the two of you. Thank you so much. Rabbi Marci Bellows Oh, Sandy, thank you. I I don't know if you recall, but I recall that one of the WRN conventions in Baltimore, you and I had a chance to have lunch together. And, and I so enjoyed just talking with you and getting to know you and being so impressed by your your Neshama just your soul being a part of like everything you say and do and so getting a chance to talk to you in this way, again, is just so wonderful. And there, there aren't words, thank you for sharing your Neshama again, so, so beautifully and openly. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Your kind words are going to carry me through the day and possibly through the week. So thank you so much. Rabbi Marci Bellows a pleasure. So you gave us your website. If people want to find you. Is there any other way that they should look for you? Rabbi Sandra Cohen My email is Rav SJ cohen@gmail.com. Rabbi Marci Bellows Great. Well, thank you so much for being with us and for your time. It's really been a privilege. Rabbi Sandra Cohen Right. Everybody, take care.
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Women Rabbis Talk Podcast 